tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8615253283819094516.post2942702267920210791..comments2024-03-25T00:36:40.345-07:00Comments on Heroes & Other Worlds: Fight or Flight?Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8615253283819094516.post-45673347683312909262014-08-07T22:58:07.181-07:002014-08-07T22:58:07.181-07:00Actually, that's a pretty good point too -- ho...Actually, that's a pretty good point too -- how does Thug 1 even know what's going on with Thug 2 if Thug 2 is also fighting? When Thug 1 drops (dead or unconscious), Thug 2 gets a pretty good idea that things didn't quite work out for Thug 1 though, and at that point probably starts remembering a dental appointment he made for tonight somewhere....Jeff V.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09773383148220245208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8615253283819094516.post-61194279075944788582014-08-03T19:56:44.749-07:002014-08-03T19:56:44.749-07:00i was wrong :) rolling against ST doesn't work...i was wrong :) rolling against ST doesn't work because there are so many low ST (ST < 10) terrors. the high ST terrors don't present a problem.<br /><br />for me, aggressive will never flee. territorial/unpredictable will flee on a 1 (1d6). cowardly will flee on a 1 or 2 (1d6).ewookiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00575992937649487920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8615253283819094516.post-43885170481413953442014-08-01T08:08:14.526-07:002014-08-01T08:08:14.526-07:00oh, forgot to add: peer-pressure will keep thug#1 ...oh, forgot to add: peer-pressure will keep thug#1 in the fight until his peers begin to disappear.ewookiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00575992937649487920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8615253283819094516.post-48062269103353876742014-08-01T08:04:56.578-07:002014-08-01T08:04:56.578-07:00MATH = BAD....ARRRRRGH
the math is one of the reas...MATH = BAD....ARRRRRGH<br />the math is one of the reasons why i prefer doing MCs when a foe is slain. i don't have to stop and consider after every hit on a foe: does this take him down to 1/2 ST? 1/4 ST? wth is 1/4 ST for this guy? where did i put my calculator?<br /><br />doing MCs when a foe is slain makes MORE sense for small battles than large ones. it actually makes no sense to me to do MCs (to determine fleeing) in large battles. (i think MCs should determine something else in large battles, but that's another subject). when you kill the leader of a pack, the followers will consider giving up the fight. kill the new leader and they consider some more.<br /><br />Soldier#001 will not make decisions about fleeing based on whether or not Soldier#999 was slain. however, thug#1 will consider fleeing after thug#6 is slain.<br /><br />rolling against current ST is pretty simple too.<br /><br />it's good to see you again, jeff!ewookiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00575992937649487920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8615253283819094516.post-27493706829108437222014-07-31T21:11:51.710-07:002014-07-31T21:11:51.710-07:00I have to say (and yes, I dropped off the face of ...I have to say (and yes, I dropped off the face of the planet for this discussion until this evening) that I really like:<br /><br />a) the idea of a morale check. I'd forgotten that little extra bit in Silver Dragon, but once you brought it to mind, I realized I'd used it several other adventures, but then never got around to figuring out some campaign rules for the idea;<br /><br />b) the way ewookie is approaching the idea. Simple is always better, even though there is an issue with the higher strength creatures. On the other hand, those higher strength creatures ARE going to feel pretty darn self-confident against the puny humans (or elves or dwarves, or whatever), so maybe not being subject to Morale Checks for a while is a situation reflective of their self-concept. It seems there ought to be a way around the die roll conundrum though -- perhaps by some sort of simple mathematical comparison -- for example, if a strength 120 creature were compared to a normal human type creature, perhaps you simply divide the creature's high strength by 10 (e.g., it is now treated as a 12 ST creature for this check, and when it's strength hits 60 (revised as "6" in this paradigm) it must roll against it's ST of 6. Obviously not every high strength creature could be divided by 10 and give rational results, but a ST 60 creature might be divided by 5 to get to that base human ST of 12 and the same concept would then work. The bottom line is that it should be do-able without too much in the way of mental gymnastics. And;<br /><br />c) Fenway's subsequent modification for the NATURE of the creature's personality also works very well -- and eliminates my rather arcane math.<br /><br />So, in the end, I think I'll probably opt for the cowardly/territorial-unpredictable/aggressive idea, with one exception -- I might roll for the "unpredictable" creature first to determine how it's feeling at the moment, prior to rolling the actual morale check -- perhaps 1-2 = cowardly, 3-4 = territorial, and 5-6 = aggressive. After all, the name "unpredictable" means exactly that, right? ;-)Jeff V.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09773383148220245208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8615253283819094516.post-80606147950113274622014-07-28T19:18:05.345-07:002014-07-28T19:18:05.345-07:00then again, if you roll against current ST when an...then again, if you roll against current ST when an ally is slain, you get the best of both worlds...indivdual damage and group damage both factor in.ewookiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00575992937649487920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8615253283819094516.post-68234451832722548262014-07-28T19:15:22.997-07:002014-07-28T19:15:22.997-07:00glad to hear that. even though we disagree on _whe...glad to hear that. even though we disagree on _when_ the morale check should be made, the 1d6 method inspired by mabon's input is much better than my original thoughts. simple is good for play and it is also simple for me to tweak to my own liking. sharing ideas/thoughts is a win/win :)ewookiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00575992937649487920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8615253283819094516.post-12756390985770518942014-07-28T18:59:14.476-07:002014-07-28T18:59:14.476-07:00And I appreciate that reasoned disagreement! Noth...And I appreciate that reasoned disagreement! Nothing is written in stone and its good to have options to experiment with, thanks again ewookie! :)Fenway5https://www.blogger.com/profile/14870312188585916750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8615253283819094516.post-28963687173201367602014-07-28T18:53:58.397-07:002014-07-28T18:53:58.397-07:00"I appreciate the feedback! The high ST issue..."I appreciate the feedback! The high ST issue is one that I don't is resolved by just waiting until its strength is down to 15% or less of original and then rolling t0's and 70'so fit a 3 or 4 dice model. We will have to agree to disagree on that."<br /><br />i didn't understand that. maybe we actually agree there.<br /><br />i do agree to disagree on the rest of that post though. i think it's just as valid in small packs (skirmish) as it is large packs (armies).ewookiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00575992937649487920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8615253283819094516.post-10310309792701633742014-07-28T18:18:14.649-07:002014-07-28T18:18:14.649-07:00Hey do not apologize for sharing your ideas and th...Hey do not apologize for sharing your ideas and thoughts! I appreciate a different point of view and your sharing gives me more to think about! Thank you very much!Fenway5https://www.blogger.com/profile/14870312188585916750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8615253283819094516.post-38275501577698221412014-07-28T18:16:13.206-07:002014-07-28T18:16:13.206-07:00I appreciate the feedback! The high ST issue is o...I appreciate the feedback! The high ST issue is one that I don't is resolved by just waiting until its strength is down to 15% or less of original and then rolling t0's and 70'so fit a 3 or 4 dice model. We will have to agree to disagree on that.<br /><br />So the D&D morale issue (testing when others on your side die) is a hold over from the war game roots of D&D from the 60's/70's. I think that idea is good for armies, but on a skirmish level it should not be the reason for testing. <br /><br />I think the more personal "how much damage have I taken" then test morale is more inline with skirmish level combat. You could certainly have modifiers for a death of a leader or as I suggested earlier, modification for the number of guys left in the fight on my side (more/equal/less) but I am not sure ST based tests work and having morale tests dependent on whenever there is a death of compatriots is right for a skirmish game.<br /><br />Just my thoughts.Fenway5https://www.blogger.com/profile/14870312188585916750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8615253283819094516.post-79627912099077810202014-07-28T12:57:45.476-07:002014-07-28T12:57:45.476-07:00D&D did that, before it was called nothing mor...D&D did that, before it was called nothing more than Blackmoor. I've read the rules in Dragons at Dawn, and kind if like the idea of morale checks even for PCs.AndreasDavourhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17170806742393291962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8615253283819094516.post-90876853279184821122014-07-28T09:16:28.288-07:002014-07-28T09:16:28.288-07:00sorry for being a post-whore. i have really fond m...sorry for being a post-whore. i have really fond memories/feelings about morale checks. additional thoughts: some things should never run away. some quick examples: zombies, skeletons, etc. i'm not sure if 'Aggressive' lines up with the sort of creatures that shouldn't run away but if it does, maybe 'Aggressive' creatures never run away.ewookiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00575992937649487920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8615253283819094516.post-83033425902155354322014-07-27T21:22:17.265-07:002014-07-27T21:22:17.265-07:00(scratch that last sentence. still i had my origin...(scratch that last sentence. still i had my original idea in my mind)ewookiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00575992937649487920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8615253283819094516.post-44965250788368620052014-07-27T21:10:28.348-07:002014-07-27T21:10:28.348-07:00Here's what i had in mind:
Each foe makes a m...Here's what i had in mind:<br /><br />Each foe makes a morale check against current ST whenever one of it's allies is slain. The behavioral aspect of the foe determines the # of die used in the check.<br /><br />Cowardly 4d6<br />Territorial/ Unpredictable 3d6<br />Aggressive 2d6<br /><br />the simple d6 method based on behavioral aspect is simpler and more appealing to me. the main thing i don't like so far is doing the morale check when a foe reaches a certain level of ST. doing it when a foe is slain is more appealing to me. i think it would make the whole combat flow better. just subtract the remaining # of allies from the d6 roll to get result.ewookiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00575992937649487920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8615253283819094516.post-47081067307868406322014-07-27T20:57:50.193-07:002014-07-27T20:57:50.193-07:00(which is why it was smart to kill the creature wi...(which is why it was smart to kill the creature with the highest morale# first)ewookiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00575992937649487920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8615253283819094516.post-70820219736655696772014-07-27T20:57:03.027-07:002014-07-27T20:57:03.027-07:00(i think that's how we did it in 1e days. when...(i think that's how we did it in 1e days. when a foe was slain, each remaining foe made a morale check against it's morale#.)ewookiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00575992937649487920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8615253283819094516.post-10401652190161613442014-07-27T20:54:22.128-07:002014-07-27T20:54:22.128-07:00i hid under a rock for a few days. i'd like to...i hid under a rock for a few days. i'd like to take up your ST120 creature example. that ST120 creature is a bad-ass mofo. that sort of toughness breeds pride. so no, he will not run away until his ST is below 18. sounds right to me.<br /><br />but my suggestion of rolling against current ST had a particular context in my mind. the context being the players are fighting several foes. let's say a pack of 6 wolves. the morale check is only made when a wolf is slain. then the remaining wolves roll against their current ST. those that pass, stay and fight. those that don't run away. when another wolf is slain, morale check again.<br /><br />i haven't given this deep, detailed thought. the number of remaining critters should be a factor in the morale check as well as the behavioral type of the critter. perhaps the # of remaining critters should adjust the ST of each critter while making the ST-based morale check. i hope that made sense. as i re-read it sounds complicated.ewookiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00575992937649487920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8615253283819094516.post-50232515300913447742014-07-26T07:18:36.900-07:002014-07-26T07:18:36.900-07:00Cowardly: fight 1-2/3-6 flight
Territorial/ Unpre...Cowardly: fight 1-2/3-6 flight<br /><br />Territorial/ Unpredictable: fight 1-3/4-6 flight<br /><br />Aggressive: fight 1-4/5-6 flight<br /><br />Had to edit the table a bit for clarity. Then I noticed so strange wording on my original reply. Sorry, I should not write until after the first cup of coffee.Fenway5https://www.blogger.com/profile/14870312188585916750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8615253283819094516.post-34414518911982948162014-07-26T07:14:54.907-07:002014-07-26T07:14:54.907-07:00And here we close the circle so to speak. I had t...And here we close the circle so to speak. I had toyed with X/ST but you run to problem when say an ST120 creature falls to ST60 3/ST or 4/ST just does not work so using ST to test for morale does not work. <br /><br />Okay so why not IQ? When ST hits half, test X/IQ. Well how to use IQ determine the fight or flight reaction is where I run into trouble. Should flight occur if you roll under the IQ...or over IQ.<br /><br />Let's look at 3/IQ taking flight if over-- that works until you reach a smart (high IQ) opponent and then the smart guy rarely runs...which seems contrary to a higher IQ.<br /><br />Let's look at 3/IQ taking flight if under -- that works to make smart people flee, but means creatures of lower intelligence (dogs, cats, wolves, snakes) will fight to the death...which seems contrary to our own experiences in the real world.<br /><br />If a ST test is flawed and an IQ test is flawed and a chart is needless complication, then I think we circle back to the creature's behavior as Mabon suggested and build on the idea ewookie discussed.<br /><br />I think a simple d6 roll based on the behavior pattern of the creature would do it. Test at half ST and test again at 1/4 ST adding +1 to the die roll. The first numbers are chance to stay in the fight/ second is chance for flight.<br /><br />Cowardly 1-2/4-6<br />Territorial/ Unpredictable 1-3/4-6<br />Aggressive 1-4/5-6<br /><br />Let me know what you think and I appreciate all the great ideas and feedback. Of course the right answer may really be we do not need this at all. :)<br /><br />Fenway5https://www.blogger.com/profile/14870312188585916750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8615253283819094516.post-16876122880190243242014-07-25T17:28:32.973-07:002014-07-25T17:28:32.973-07:00I like ewookie's take- simple and less cumbers...I like ewookie's take- simple and less cumbersome than a chart.Chris Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00640055126455893507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8615253283819094516.post-67059805503535115092014-07-25T16:51:19.087-07:002014-07-25T16:51:19.087-07:00another M&M to add to the bowl of ideas and mi...another M&M to add to the bowl of ideas and mix around: morale check = (2 or 3)d6 vs. current ST. roll under = fight. roll over = flight. no need to make up a new stat. the behavior patterns (territorial, aggressive, etc.) can determine: #die used, modifiers, when(if) the check is made, etc.ewookiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00575992937649487920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8615253283819094516.post-4702165463697971362014-07-25T08:53:18.874-07:002014-07-25T08:53:18.874-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.ewookiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00575992937649487920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8615253283819094516.post-32069907565490624492014-07-25T04:56:44.814-07:002014-07-25T04:56:44.814-07:00That's a an interesting and sensible idea! Tha...That's a an interesting and sensible idea! Thanks MabonFenway5https://www.blogger.com/profile/14870312188585916750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8615253283819094516.post-85740773187154674732014-07-25T04:55:30.875-07:002014-07-25T04:55:30.875-07:00Thanks ewookie for the feedback, I appreciate it.Thanks ewookie for the feedback, I appreciate it.Fenway5https://www.blogger.com/profile/14870312188585916750noreply@blogger.com